Buying Property With Family in Australia: What to Get Right Before You Buy | NAPP Podcast S02E01

[00:00:06,640 → 00:00:07,710] Welcome back everybody.

[00:00:07,720 → 00:00:10,560] We have taken a bit of break between drinks.

[00:00:10,560 → 00:00:13,160] It's been a while since our last episode, but I want to thank our

[00:00:13,160 → 00:00:16,600] Property Power team for joining me on Not Another Property podcast.

[00:00:16,600 → 00:00:19,840] So just before we get into today's episode, I want to provide just a

[00:00:19,840 → 00:00:20,960] brief disclaimer.

[00:00:21,000 → 00:00:25,040] Nothing that is being discussed today is specific personal advice.

[00:00:25,040 → 00:00:27,600] It's all very general and factual in nature.

[00:00:27,600 → 00:00:32,400] If you are looking for any specific advice pertaining to your personal situation, please

[00:00:32,400 → 00:00:36,360] do not hesitate to reach out to any of these financial and legal service

[00:00:36,360 → 00:00:37,150] professionals.

[00:00:37,160 → 00:00:43,760] Today I'm joined by Daniella Muzitano from Titlespace Conveyancing mortgage manager Michael O'Malley

[00:00:43,800 → 00:00:49,600] from Rate Money Sydney CBD, and I'm joined by Andrew Chan from Phoenix Wealth

[00:00:49,600 → 00:00:50,120] Management.

[00:00:50,120 → 00:00:51,400] Thank you for joining me, guys.

[00:00:51,400 → 00:00:53,040] I wanted to start with Daniella.

[00:00:53,040 → 00:00:55,800] We're talking today a little bit about buying with a family, whether it's a

[00:00:55,800 → 00:01:00,240] shortcut to getting into the market or whether it's an absolute legal mess waiting

[00:01:00,280 → 00:01:00,720] to happen.

[00:01:00,720 → 00:01:05,160] So Daniella, for me, I wanted to understand what are the biggest legal mistakes

[00:01:05,160 → 00:01:09,600] that families make when they buy together, and they seem it'll just work out

[00:01:09,600 → 00:01:10,480] afterwards?

[00:01:10,880 → 00:01:15,920] Well, I guess the biggest mistake is to assume the relationship itself is safe.

[00:01:15,960 → 00:01:18,120] We don't know what's going to happen.

[00:01:18,400 → 00:01:24,080] It is important to have documents in place to protect the transaction.

[00:01:24,080 → 00:01:30,000] So for example, from the start, you need to know the percentage of ownership,

[00:01:30,000 → 00:01:32,600] how much you know each person.

[00:01:32,760 → 00:01:34,400] It's you know,

[00:01:35,120 → 00:01:36,760] own of the property.

[00:01:36,960 → 00:01:42,520] You need to understand what's going to happen if one person wants out, what's

[00:01:42,520 → 00:01:48,320] going to happen if one person passes away or if one is out of

[00:01:48,320 → 00:01:48,920] a job.

[00:01:48,930 → 00:01:54,480] So it is important to have documents in place to cover all of that.

[00:01:54,480 → 00:01:57,680] And the mistake is not preparing for that.

[00:01:57,760 → 00:02:03,840] Another thing that we see often is parents giving the money to children, and

[00:02:03,840 → 00:02:08,240] a certain point a day they go into the factor relationship and what's going

[00:02:08,240 → 00:02:13,720] to happen once the couple splits up so often, what do we do?

[00:02:13,760 → 00:02:19,520] We prepare mortgage documents and large caveats on title of the property to protect

[00:02:19,520 → 00:02:21,680] that deposit paid by the parents.

[00:02:21,760 → 00:02:25,840] And I'm sure there's a number of different dynamics as well between whether it's

[00:02:25,840 → 00:02:30,640] two siblings or whether it's a parent helping out their children, or even children

[00:02:30,640 → 00:02:35,720] helping out their parents to purchase a home for their retirement or something along

[00:02:35,720 → 00:02:36,440] those lines.

[00:02:36,440 → 00:02:40,920] And I feel it's important to understand from a legal perspective not only how

[00:02:40,920 → 00:02:45,320] you enter into the property, but the scenarios of exiting that property as well.

[00:02:45,360 → 00:02:48,840] What are some of the questions that you have to ask when you're going

[00:02:48,840 → 00:02:50,680] through these cases with with clients?

[00:02:50,720 → 00:02:57,440] Well, it's to find out exactly what they want, what they want to happen.

[00:02:57,440 → 00:03:01,880] If one of the scenarios I mentioned before happened, so if somebody passed away

[00:03:01,920 → 00:03:06,520] or, you know, if there's a split up in a relationship and based on

[00:03:06,640 → 00:03:11,800] those assets, we can prepare the, you know, the applicable documents and then lodge

[00:03:11,800 → 00:03:13,800] protections on title accordingly.

[00:03:13,840 → 00:03:14,040] Yeah.

[00:03:14,080 → 00:03:17,920] And just get an understanding of how to protect yourself and what happens in

[00:03:17,920 → 00:03:18,960] those worst cases as well.

[00:03:19,000 → 00:03:19,360] Yeah.

[00:03:19,400 → 00:03:22,880] And maybe we talked a little bit about mortgage documents, but I wanted to

[00:03:22,920 → 00:03:27,920] ask you what is the difference between maybe using a family guarantee and actually

[00:03:27,920 → 00:03:29,320] buying a property together.

[00:03:29,360 → 00:03:33,960] Is that is which one is normally creates less risk, or are there pros

[00:03:33,960 → 00:03:35,680] and cons to one way over the other?

[00:03:35,720 → 00:03:36,400] Yeah.

[00:03:36,400 → 00:03:39,440] If you want to cut straight to the headline for my money, a parental

[00:03:39,440 → 00:03:45,040] guarantee, your Family Pledge loan is always inherently less risky and easier in

[00:03:45,080 → 00:03:45,760] that situation.

[00:03:45,760 → 00:03:49,120] Basically, you've got parents or siblings saying, I'm going to lend you some equity

[00:03:49,120 → 00:03:53,080] in my property, and you can release that guarantee when you've got sufficient equity

[00:03:53,080 → 00:03:53,760] in yours.

[00:03:53,800 → 00:03:55,320] And there are two factors at play.

[00:03:55,320 → 00:03:59,640] Helping that along your property is generally increasing in value, and you're paying down

[00:03:59,640 → 00:04:00,200] the loan.

[00:04:00,200 → 00:04:02,080] So you're building equity all the time.

[00:04:02,320 → 00:04:07,560] If you're in a co buying situation, everyone's on the loan, everyone's on title.

[00:04:07,560 → 00:04:10,640] Everyone's making joint decisions about what happens with the property.

[00:04:10,800 → 00:04:12,720] Everyone's jointly and severally liable.

[00:04:12,720 → 00:04:15,440] So if someone can't pay, the others have to pick up the slack.

[00:04:15,480 → 00:04:20,320] So a parental guarantee or family pledges is a much less risky and a

[00:04:20,320 → 00:04:23,480] lot safer way of going about acquiring a property, I think.

[00:04:23,520 → 00:04:27,160] And maybe just to wind back a little bit, if we could explain in

[00:04:27,160 → 00:04:31,120] layman's terms, essentially what is a family guarantee and how does it operate?

[00:04:31,160 → 00:04:31,320] Yeah.

[00:04:31,480 → 00:04:33,800] What you're doing is, is

[00:04:34,840 → 00:04:37,480] use parents and children as an example.

[00:04:37,480 → 00:04:41,400] The parents are saying, I'm going to let the bank take security over a

[00:04:41,400 → 00:04:45,200] certain proportion of equity or the value of my property, but they're not actually

[00:04:45,200 → 00:04:46,320] contributing any money.

[00:04:46,320 → 00:04:47,990] They're not on the loan.

[00:04:48,000 → 00:04:50,960] All they're doing is letting the kids tap into that equity.

[00:04:50,960 → 00:04:55,360] And and then later on, as I say, when the, when the purchase property

[00:04:55,360 → 00:04:58,650] increases in value and you get back down to the right sort of LVO

[00:04:58,650 → 00:05:02,240] or ratio of the loan, you can release the guarantee and it's not without

[00:05:02,240 → 00:05:02,800] risk.

[00:05:02,840 → 00:05:05,840] You know what happens if the parents want to sell their home, for example?

[00:05:05,840 → 00:05:10,880] So it's not it's not a 100% bulletproof solution, but I think it's a

[00:05:10,880 → 00:05:11,600] lot less.

[00:05:11,600 → 00:05:14,440] There are a lot less pitfalls in that approach than there are in

[00:05:14,440 → 00:05:15,560] buying a property together.

[00:05:15,600 → 00:05:16,470] Yeah, understandable.

[00:05:16,480 → 00:05:19,480] So if we put it into a scenario, maybe if we had sort of

[00:05:19,520 → 00:05:25,760] adult adult parents who used their home to guarantee that the kids can purchase

[00:05:25,760 → 00:05:30,200] their home, essentially that property would then be put up as security, and then

[00:05:30,200 → 00:05:34,120] the kids would be able to purchase that property one day down the track.

[00:05:34,120 → 00:05:37,880] If that property were to go up in value, they could remove the parents

[00:05:37,880 → 00:05:38,230] property or.

[00:05:38,240 → 00:05:40,920] Security, release the guarantee and everyone plays on on their own.

[00:05:40,960 → 00:05:41,280] Okay.

[00:05:41,320 → 00:05:41,560] No.

[00:05:42,480 → 00:05:43,760] Maybe more for you, Andrew.

[00:05:43,800 → 00:05:48,760] How should families think about how they contribute if there is an imbalance

[00:05:48,760 → 00:05:54,240] control between imbalance between kids and how should they plan their exit before committing

[00:05:54,280 → 00:05:55,080] to buying?

[00:05:55,120 → 00:05:55,360] Yeah.

[00:05:55,400 → 00:05:55,960] Good question.

[00:05:55,960 → 00:06:01,560] I think it starts with a lot of families approach this as a purchase

[00:06:01,600 → 00:06:03,920] when really it's a long term business relationship.

[00:06:03,920 → 00:06:06,120] So your parents have their own objectives.

[00:06:06,120 → 00:06:07,080] They want to help their children.

[00:06:07,080 → 00:06:08,320] It's very altruistic.

[00:06:08,320 → 00:06:10,840] And the children are children, so they need help.

[00:06:10,840 → 00:06:12,400] But children variably grow up.

[00:06:12,440 → 00:06:13,840] They have their their individuals.

[00:06:13,840 → 00:06:16,520] They have their own goals once needs and life changes.

[00:06:16,520 → 00:06:16,720] Right.

[00:06:16,760 → 00:06:18,920] So Danny mentioned that someone might pass away.

[00:06:18,960 → 00:06:23,280] So we'll talk about exit because because you shouldn't be getting into any transaction

[00:06:23,320 → 00:06:26,000] unless you know how you're going to get out of it purely from an

[00:06:26,000 → 00:06:27,000] investment standpoint.

[00:06:27,080 → 00:06:32,360] And so whether it's a sale buyer or life change, smart families get the

[00:06:32,360 → 00:06:33,680] documentation right.

[00:06:33,720 → 00:06:37,720] Talk about this very early on in terms of contribution.

[00:06:37,760 → 00:06:42,160] It's very important to document contribution because we all have different personalities.

[00:06:42,160 → 00:06:45,240] You got you got the child that will do everything right.

[00:06:45,360 → 00:06:46,500] Save save save pay.

[00:06:46,800 → 00:06:48,160] Pay everything down quickly.

[00:06:48,200 → 00:06:51,440] You've got the child who loves to go out, have party, enjoy life, who

[00:06:51,440 → 00:06:57,040] doesn't, and and often you as parents, you you want to treat them

[00:06:57,040 → 00:06:57,360] equally.

[00:06:57,360 → 00:07:01,280] But if you're a party to this transaction, you want to save the discussion

[00:07:01,280 → 00:07:06,120] point between I have you want it to be I've contributed this much and

[00:07:06,120 → 00:07:10,720] be able to prove it, rather than we're both entitled to the proceeds equally.

[00:07:10,760 → 00:07:13,440] And so that's in terms of contribution.

[00:07:13,440 → 00:07:14,920] Documentation is king.

[00:07:15,320 → 00:07:16,280] Full control.

[00:07:16,320 → 00:07:17,880] Control is very important.

[00:07:17,880 → 00:07:23,760] So again documentation dictates control because what happens when one person wants to renovate

[00:07:23,760 → 00:07:24,960] another dozen.

[00:07:25,000 → 00:07:28,360] What happens when you're up keeping this property and the relationships working well.

[00:07:28,370 → 00:07:31,720] But someone needs to exit out of that property and they want to sell,

[00:07:31,720 → 00:07:33,280] but the other one wants to hold.

[00:07:33,280 → 00:07:35,280] So we have different life changes.

[00:07:35,280 → 00:07:39,040] If you don't have the right good lever badly for clauses in your documentation,

[00:07:39,040 → 00:07:43,200] you'll be left with a very illiquid asset, which makes it very difficult for

[00:07:43,200 → 00:07:43,720] the family.

[00:07:43,760 → 00:07:48,200] And I suppose that's where the work that each of you do together is

[00:07:48,200 → 00:07:52,360] very important, because as a financial planner, I often say that financial planners will

[00:07:52,360 → 00:07:56,640] sit on the balcony overlooking the dance floor, seeing how the individual players interact

[00:07:56,640 → 00:08:00,560] with each other and you're coordinating that, you know, this is how control should

[00:08:00,560 → 00:08:02,240] look amongst the broader family.

[00:08:02,240 → 00:08:05,720] So if I'm helping out one child, then the other child might not be

[00:08:05,720 → 00:08:07,840] disadvantaged or for whatever reason.

[00:08:07,880 → 00:08:11,640] How is that broader conversation with those those family sets?

[00:08:11,640 → 00:08:13,160] How is that brought up conversation?

[00:08:13,200 → 00:08:17,640] Yeah, it's funny you say that we've done renovations in the boardroom.

[00:08:17,640 → 00:08:21,400] It's naturally because generational wealth planning is now the thing.

[00:08:21,440 → 00:08:21,680] Right?

[00:08:21,720 → 00:08:26,320] And so it's all about getting them in, in the very beginning, having those

[00:08:26,320 → 00:08:30,600] conversations dictating this is what we're going to do for you, but this is

[00:08:30,600 → 00:08:31,560] how you're going to behave.

[00:08:31,560 → 00:08:33,000] And do you agree with that.

[00:08:33,000 → 00:08:37,480] And so and in that process, once they've got agreement and they realize they

[00:08:37,480 → 00:08:41,920] are the guardrails in which for this transaction, then when it comes time, it's

[00:08:41,920 → 00:08:46,080] not something that figuring out or have they're open to their own interpretation.

[00:08:46,440 → 00:08:47,400] Yeah, 100%.

[00:08:47,440 → 00:08:52,640] And I find that, you know, when you have those dynamics between multiple generations

[00:08:52,640 → 00:08:56,840] and even multiple parties within a transaction, it's hard to it's hard to get

[00:08:56,840 → 00:08:59,360] an understanding of what everybody's expectations are.

[00:08:59,400 → 00:09:03,720] Or often they may have conflicting expectations, because realistically, a lot of people have

[00:09:03,720 → 00:09:05,880] been out of the market for a while.

[00:09:05,880 → 00:09:09,360] So I see it a lot in parents helping out younger children.

[00:09:09,520 → 00:09:14,500] Realistically, as a parent, you know, you might be in your, say, 50

[00:09:14,500 → 00:09:15,280] or 60 years.

[00:09:15,280 → 00:09:17,000] You haven't purchased property in a while.

[00:09:17,000 → 00:09:20,150] And more often than not, I find that people really only transact 2 or

[00:09:20,150 → 00:09:21,240] 3 properties in their lifetime.

[00:09:21,240 → 00:09:23,840] They buy a first home, they'll buy a family home.

[00:09:23,840 → 00:09:26,440] They may have either an investment property or family home.

[00:09:26,440 → 00:09:29,920] So they don't have a great breadth of experience in terms of what expectations

[00:09:29,920 → 00:09:33,400] to set in terms of what does that property purchase look like and even

[00:09:33,400 → 00:09:34,720] the purpose of that property.

[00:09:34,760 → 00:09:39,520] So a lot of the younger generation nowadays, they'll they'll buy their first home

[00:09:39,520 → 00:09:42,400] and they'll use it as a stepping stone to get into their next home.

[00:09:42,440 → 00:09:46,160] Often it's because they want to use first time buyer guarantee or low deposits

[00:09:46,160 → 00:09:47,480] game or something along those lines.

[00:09:47,480 → 00:09:51,790] So we're finding that the kids have ulterior motives for the parents.

[00:09:51,800 → 00:09:54,400] The parents want it to be a good investment to help them step into

[00:09:54,400 → 00:09:55,360] the next property.

[00:09:55,360 → 00:09:57,920] The kids just want to get out of the house sometimes.

[00:09:57,960 → 00:10:00,600] And then we're also seeing the rise of intergenerational living.

[00:10:00,600 → 00:10:04,440] So that might be more of a question for you than have you any

[00:10:04,440 → 00:10:10,400] case studies around those scenarios where because we're seeing the rise of intergenerational accommodation

[00:10:10,400 → 00:10:15,120] and residential property, how does that sit in terms of a legal perspective?

[00:10:15,120 → 00:10:17,240] How do people navigate those waters?

[00:10:18,880 → 00:10:22,240] I've seen a few from especially for some

[00:10:22,880 → 00:10:24,640] like ethnic groups.

[00:10:25,330 → 00:10:29,320] Normally there's

[00:10:30,520 → 00:10:36,240] the kids will go on to the title and they would just take the

[00:10:36,240 → 00:10:37,560] parents to live on them.

[00:10:37,560 → 00:10:41,640] But there's no I mean, if there is contribution on the day to day

[00:10:41,640 → 00:10:47,600] living may be the case, but mostly we see the, the, the couple,

[00:10:47,640 → 00:10:51,800] you know, the daughter and the son in law taking on the lawn, buying

[00:10:51,800 → 00:10:54,920] the property in their name and just having the parents living with them.

[00:10:54,920 → 00:10:59,600] And then the conversation is like, potentially there could be the parents, you might

[00:10:59,600 → 00:11:03,200] have one of the children living with them and grandchildren, and then there might

[00:11:03,200 → 00:11:06,200] be some other siblings that don't reside in that intergenerational home.

[00:11:06,200 → 00:11:09,440] How is that conversation in terms of, you know, this is what the estate's

[00:11:09,480 → 00:11:11,360] going to look like, or this is how we're going to

[00:11:12,200 → 00:11:15,560] divest assets in the event of, you know, when you pass away.

[00:11:15,600 → 00:11:16,040] How is that?

[00:11:16,960 → 00:11:21,600] It's it's important conversation, because it's not just that you have

[00:11:22,680 → 00:11:25,440] children always have different abilities or different ambitions.

[00:11:25,440 → 00:11:30,280] So one one might be if you're in a transaction very, very capable and

[00:11:30,320 → 00:11:33,920] is as that first stage is that first step property and they're ready to

[00:11:33,920 → 00:11:34,440] go again.

[00:11:34,440 → 00:11:34,720] Right.

[00:11:34,760 → 00:11:37,320] And so they might want to move to a better area.

[00:11:37,440 → 00:11:38,960] They can do it purely on their income.

[00:11:38,960 → 00:11:39,800] You have another child.

[00:11:39,800 → 00:11:42,680] The second child who's who probably needs a bit of help to sell that

[00:11:42,680 → 00:11:44,280] property to then have enough to do it.

[00:11:44,280 → 00:11:47,240] And you've got the child that never leaves home, but that child takes care

[00:11:47,240 → 00:11:48,200] of mum and dad, right?

[00:11:48,240 → 00:11:48,920] And so

[00:11:49,760 → 00:11:55,080] you have so many contributions financial, their own ability versus taking care of the

[00:11:55,080 → 00:11:55,720] family.

[00:11:55,760 → 00:11:59,880] We, we by having those conversations early on, you can value those.

[00:11:59,880 → 00:12:03,880] But the thing is, is that when they're so young and you're making these

[00:12:03,880 → 00:12:06,920] decisions, you can't possibly know what they are.

[00:12:06,960 → 00:12:11,800] So that's why the financial planning aspect is so important to say, hey, as

[00:12:11,800 → 00:12:16,520] we get to each loved by stage, let's come in, let's discuss, let's reset.

[00:12:16,760 → 00:12:20,960] Let's make sure that what you're talking about is the state planning, that it

[00:12:20,960 → 00:12:24,160] is not something left to a decision where mum and dad aren't in the

[00:12:24,160 → 00:12:24,760] room or not.

[00:12:25,040 → 00:12:28,400] No longer mentally capable to make their decisions and give their influence.

[00:12:28,400 → 00:12:30,600] So you want to have those conversations?

[00:12:30,600 → 00:12:35,520] Because estate planning is about maintaining the bonds of family beyond you're helping not

[00:12:35,520 → 00:12:36,920] to make them wealthier.

[00:12:36,960 → 00:12:40,520] Hopefully you're helping them to make them wealthy and to stay together as a

[00:12:40,520 → 00:12:40,960] family.

[00:12:40,960 → 00:12:42,640] And so we have those decisions.

[00:12:42,640 → 00:12:44,480] We reset their minds in thinking.

[00:12:44,480 → 00:12:48,120] And sometimes if they don't agree, they're not party to that.

[00:12:48,120 → 00:12:50,280] And then we formalize that in documentation.

[00:12:50,320 → 00:12:52,480] And I'm sure that's all part of succession planning.

[00:12:52,480 → 00:12:53,720] I was going to ask something.

[00:12:53,720 → 00:12:57,400] We did have a case where the daughter and a son in law,

[00:12:57,440 → 00:13:01,600] they were buying a property and the parents sold her parents are sold the

[00:13:01,600 → 00:13:05,840] property to contribute towards the purchase and going to the mortgage, but they couldn't

[00:13:05,840 → 00:13:07,760] get into the mortgage because of age.

[00:13:08,240 → 00:13:10,800] I think you're all just reinforcing my fears and I'm never going to get

[00:13:10,800 → 00:13:11,480] my kids off the book.

[00:13:12,800 → 00:13:17,760] So we had to prepare some documents, obviously, and did the, you know, some

[00:13:17,800 → 00:13:21,560] sort of like protection on the title, but they couldn't be on a mortgage.

[00:13:21,800 → 00:13:22,520] I guess.

[00:13:22,560 → 00:13:26,320] Are there options where there's different entities that you could purchase in, and how

[00:13:26,320 → 00:13:31,240] does that factor into the mortgage, into the into the home loan process?

[00:13:31,280 → 00:13:31,720] There are.

[00:13:31,720 → 00:13:34,960] But again, I think that's probably more a Daniela question than me.

[00:13:35,000 → 00:13:39,200] I'm, you know, the structure or the entities are not really my concern.

[00:13:39,400 → 00:13:41,560] I'm more concerned about affordability.

[00:13:41,560 → 00:13:43,960] So yeah, there undoubtedly are.

[00:13:44,000 → 00:13:44,480] Yeah.

[00:13:44,480 → 00:13:47,360] But yes, that's not my area of expertise.

[00:13:47,360 → 00:13:48,880] That's where I rely on Danny.

[00:13:49,080 → 00:13:52,890] And I'm sure it works differently between a discretionary trust or a company and

[00:13:52,920 → 00:13:56,280] or a unit trust, the different legalities involved there.

[00:13:56,320 → 00:13:58,280] We don't do that normally.

[00:13:58,280 → 00:13:59,360] What do we do?

[00:13:59,480 → 00:14:02,920] Like if we want to put some sort of protection on title is by

[00:14:02,920 → 00:14:08,160] way of caving and doing so normally we prepare mortgage documents with the

[00:14:08,160 → 00:14:11,520] parties sign, they agree, and then we're able to lodge a cave on

[00:14:11,520 → 00:14:11,960] title.

[00:14:12,000 → 00:14:12,160] Yeah.

[00:14:12,200 → 00:14:12,680] Awesome.

[00:14:12,720 → 00:14:16,720] And there are restrictions around what types of trusts borrowers will entertain as

[00:14:16,720 → 00:14:17,200] well.

[00:14:17,240 → 00:14:19,200] Yeah discretionary and family generally fine.

[00:14:19,200 → 00:14:22,600] But if you get into hybrids and other sorts of more complex trust, they're

[00:14:22,600 → 00:14:23,680] not so keen to lend.

[00:14:23,760 → 00:14:26,680] I know we have that topic coming up around around buying in a trust,

[00:14:26,680 → 00:14:30,880] and it has been a hot topic lately, so I will save that for

[00:14:30,880 → 00:14:31,680] another episode.

[00:14:31,680 → 00:14:33,800] But what I want to do is I want to thank everybody for their

[00:14:33,800 → 00:14:35,000] contribution to this episode.

[00:14:35,000 → 00:14:38,080] I'm sure the audience has found it very insightful, so thank you very much

[00:14:38,080 → 00:14:39,100] for your time expertise.